I was recently watching Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson chatting with Russell Brand, and I heard Jordan say something that caught my attention. He said, “I don’t think it’s possible to grow up without having children.”

It’s a minefield of a subject, so naturally, Stephen and I decided to wade right in . . . I’d love it if you left me a comment with your thoughts.

Matthew:

Steve, to switch gears, I’m going on a Mikhaila Peterson podcast today and I can’t wait because Mikhaila is… I think she’s really, really interesting. I think that her story’s fascinating. What she’s dealt with in her life is fascinating. I am extraordinarily excited about the conversation. In my research, I’ve watched her, Russell Brand, and her father, Jordan Peterson, all together talking and they got into the subject of children. And Jordan Peterson said quite a bold statement which, as we all know, Jordan Peterson is not known for, but he goes, he said, “I don’t think that anyone can truly grow up until they have kids.”

What are your thoughts on that statement? Because I heard that and instinctively, given that I think people don’t necessarily realize this about us, but we have spent probably more time with women going through issues around their biological clock and the possibility of not having kids when that was in their blueprint. It was something they wanted more than anything in the world and maybe they don’t get to have them. Maybe they don’t meet someone in time. Maybe there are complications they didn’t anticipate. But we have dealt with so many of those issues that when I heard that, instinctively, I went, “Oh, that’s a big statement,” But I also completely understand the sentiment of it.

I understand where it’s coming from and perhaps someone with kids would say, “But Matthew, you can’t truly understand until you’ve had kids.” I always love that family guy joke where Brian, he suddenly realizes he’s got a kid and he starts saying to Stewie, “When you have children, you will understand.” He’d suddenly become so patronizing, annoying to be around because it’s like the rest of the world doesn’t understand anymore. He’s suddenly transferred into a world where there’s something he understands that the rest of the world doesn’t, that doesn’t have kids, which there is a bit of that. I think we should talk about that at some point, but what do you think of that statement?

Stephen:

Well, far be for me to venture my opinion against a world renowned psychologist. But I-

Matthew:

Well, I think your opinion is valid Stephen.

Stephen:

Sure. I mean, I don’t have kids, so it’s a dimension of life that isn’t available to me yet. I can only sort of pontificate. I think, I’m not sure because I feel like there are so many areas of life where if you haven’t experienced them yet, there’s a level of maturity and understanding that is just closed to you. Maybe if you’ve never been… He’s talking about growing up and it’s like, well maybe if you’ve never had a job you’ve never really been growing up. Maybe if you’ve never paid your own taxes you’re not grown up. Maybe if you’ve never had to support anyone you’ve never grown up. And you know, when you were in a relationship, you feel like, “Oh man, God, before I was in a relationship, I really didn’t understand what love actually was or what it is to actually have to manage other people’s needs as well as my own.” Right? You’re used to living your own selfish single life. So I am well prepared to accept that there is a whole sphere of life that is unknown to you until you have kids. And lots of parents say to you, “My God, I never knew how much it really takes,” or they say, “I never knew my capacity to love until they had kids.” And that I’m perfectly prepared to take them on their word for that.

Stephen:

Maturity though is a multifaceted thing, isn’t it? Because some people never mature in certain ways, even with children and there’s ways they stay completely immature and reckless and like kids. I mean in a negative sense, not the having a lovely, innocent sense, but in being naive and immature. There’s ways that people never mature in all sorts of ways. So I’ve kind of reticent. In some ways, it’s like, “Yes, I can totally see that, but I’m also reticent to put too much weight on that compared to a hundred other ways you could be totally immature and foolish, if you like, and irresponsible. There can be people with children who are extremely irresponsible.

Matthew:

I suppose the idea is that you can’t ever truly be unselfish if you don’t have children. The truth of that idea aside, I suppose where it takes my mind because that’s the world, this is the world we live in. My lens a lot of the time is how would that statement, how would that thought affect people in situations over which they may have no control? There is a kind of, culturally, I’m still fascinated by the assumptions that are made about success based on relationship status, marital status, whether you have kids and it’s quite easy… I’ve experienced as a man, people who at certain points in my life when I’ve been single, the assumption is, “Well, why aren’t you in a relationship?” And you can feel there’s a tone to that question.

And of course, women feel this to an incredible degree. I feel it, and perhaps you Stephen, feel it to an incredible degree, I suppose, from a professional pressure that sometimes people put on us. Like you should be in a relationship if you’re doing what you’re doing, which I don’t actually agree with, because I don’t think that being in a relationship is a personal choice and it should be based on the person in front of you and whether you want to be in a relationship as opposed to just the desire to be in any relationship regardless of who it’s with so that you can say you’re in a relationship. I think that a relationship should be like a kind of a dream career path. You do it because you feel compelled to do it by having found something that you really love doing as opposed to feeling like you just should, no Matthewer what, just choose any old thing and do it because you feel pressure to go to an office every day.

Stephen:

And this is why I reject, by the way, I reject the over ascribing of some special status to relationship, children. People can choose them things for really, really bad reasons and that’s where I reject the idea that someone is further ahead because they got married and had kids. It’s like some people could have done that in a completely ludicrous, foolish way that suggests complete immaturity. So, that’s where I reject. I reject the societal idea that there’s a continuum of immaturity from single to maturity, to children and relationship. I have issues with that because I think people make bad choices. I think people make bad choices when that is seen as just an essential, necessary stepping stone or even just, it’s always applauded.

Matthew:

Yeah. Look, I mean life, more simply, I think life comes down to choices. Christopher Hitchens said, “In life, you have to choose your regrets.” Whatever you do, you’re missing out on something. That’s just always true. You’re always, if you’re single, you’re going to be missing out on the experience of having, you get to the evening and you want to, I don’t know, veg out with someone that you don’t have to entertain or someone that you really, you love and feel connected to, and you just want to watch a movie. Then you might be missing out on that. You might have a casual thing or something in its place, but it may not, it’s not going to be the same. If you’re in a relationship or you have kids, then you, it’s going to be much harder to go around the world and travel or to do other things that you might want to do or to get the solitude that you might crave at times.

There is just always going to be something you’re missing out on. It is, I suppose, an interesting conversation. Perhaps Jordan Peterson would argue that there is just in the hierarchy of lives well lived that having kids is the kind of the pinnacle of that. But that’s an interesting argument. And I think that there’s a… Life to me, there’s peak experiences in life and having children is a peak experience. It’s one of those peak, it’s like one of the most incredible things I believe a human could ever experience in life, but I come from a world and I suppose from a coaching philosophy that wherever you are, whatever situation you’re in, in life, it’s about making the absolute most of your situation. It’s whether you’re single, whether you’re in a relationship, whether you’re going to have your own biological kids, whether you’re going to adopt if you can’t have your own biological kids, or even if you can, but you just decide that adoption is more meaningful for you as a kind of narrative, as a story, has more meaning.

I believe in making the most of wherever you’re at. And sometimes when I hear certain statements, it’s a kind of value statement in itself that says, this is unequivocally the highest thing that you can do and that there is no other. It’s like, there is only, it’s like saying there’s only one path to enlightenment. There are many routes there. So yeah, I’m kind of fascinated by this because I just, I worry, I worry about the pressure put on people in general. I worry about the pressure people feel to be in a relationship. I worry about the… Especially women, I worry about the pressure they feel to be in a relationship or the shame that they sometimes feel for not having found someone or the low self-worth and confidence that comes from not having found someone so much of which is projected onto them by other people.

Matthew:

And then if enough people at the dinner table say, “How come you’re still single? Why haven’t you met anyone yet?” Or, “Doesn’t life feel meaningless without having found a relationship or having had a family.” The more people say that the more it becomes a kind of a brainwashing that you feel compelled to believe. And then you feel deficient in your life, even if life’s going pretty well for you. Even if a relationship could be a month from now around the corner, you could meet someone a month from now or six months from now or a year from now and your life could completely change, and that’s great. But, I hate the idea that in the meantime, people think that their lives somehow count for less or are worth less because they haven’t found that thing.

Stephen:

Well, yeah. And you can be responsible for others in so many ways. And in some ways that might be one of the things, if I’m speculating that Jordan Peterson is talking about there, where one move to maturity is being responsible for others outside of yourself. And you can do that in many ways, but I’m more like emotionally libertarian where I think people can make sacrifice and take responsibility in many, many different ways in life. And clearly marriage and kids is one of the most obvious and most clear ways to do that. But I think there are other ways to do that. And I think you and I, through years of coaching as well, have just seen so many people who have been self-torturing, thinking they should stay with the wrong guy because of family pressure, because of religious pressure, because of outside judgment and stay with the wrong person and they feel guilt and shame. That’s where I think, “Man, this belief could be dangerous if people just think they failed because they are not moving towards that right now. And that’s my fear of people just being shoved into relationships and responsibilities that are wrong for them.

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Matthew:

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